American Heritage Air was recently featured on the GrayHawk DJC podcast.
During the video, we talk about how we started our HVAC business, as well as some useful advice on how our customers can maintain their AC systems.
David: Hey guys, how are you doing?
Sabrina and Owen: Alright.
David: Good, well, welcome to the show. So Sabrina and Owen you are the owners of an air conditioning repair and installation company, correct?
Sabrina and Owen: Correct.
David: So let’s get to know you better. Take us back and tell us where you’re from and how you met.
Owen: Wel, I’m originally from New York City.
David: What part? . Owen: I’m actually from Long Island. I was born in Brooklyn but I lived most of my life on Long Island
David: I lived on Staten Island for a while…so that’s cool.
Owen: Yeah. So that’s where we met. We both worked together at Bally Total Fitness a long time ago.
David: How long ago was this?
Owen: 2001
David: Okay
Owen: And literally a month before 9/11. And that’s where we met and, you know, she’s originally from Dallas and she introduced me to Dallas and told me how cheap it was. And later on, we decided to move here.
David: So Sabrina, what are you doing in New York City at this time?
Sabrina: Oh, I was working for the New York Post.
David: Okay
Sabrina: So, I was commuting back and forth from the City to Long Island.
David: But you’re from Dallas.
Sabina: Yeah.
David: What part?
Sabina: Well, I went to Richardson High School.
David: Oh cool. I went to Jesuit. So we’re kind of from the same area.
Sabrina: Yeah.
David: So you guys met in New York. Then what happened?
Owen: After that, we started dating and things started progressing a little bit more in our relationship and we ended up getting married in 2004 and we had a daughter in 2007 and then we moved here.
Sabrina: The commute was just too much. Everything was getting really expensive.
Owen: So we bought our first house in Frisco right around when the market crashed. And I never believed it but she always told me how cheap it was but I never believed it.
David: How did you convince him to come to Dallas?
Sabrina: Well, we just had our daughter and we thought, wow, we’re paying so much money for our apartment in New York. So my dad was here in Dallas and we would come to visit and we looked around and we were like, oh, we can buy a house here for less than what we’re paying in rent in New York. So we decided to make the big move. At the time, the market kind of soured and Owen was working for one of the big box AC companies.
Owen: I was their number one sales tech and I eventually decided to go off on my own. So that was back in 2010. In 2013, we opened up our own business.
David: Did you have any experience? Like, how did you get your AC experience?
Owen: Yeah, right out of high school.
David: Okay
Owen: Right out of high school I went to trade school. It’s called Boces on Long Island. They help you find a job and that’s how I did it. They found me a job in the field.
David: Were you intending to be an AC tech at that time?
Owen: No. I was just a kid. I was just trying to make some money. I was trying to get my feet wet but I didn’t know anything about AC. So I was doing duct work. And people were telling me that I should use more of my brains and learn how to be a surgeon and fix things rather than just being in attics and basements and installing duct work. And I’m like, yeah, that sounds great, but how do I do that?
David: How long were you doing that for?
Owen: I did that for about 3 years and then I got laid off two weeks before Christmas. But, you know what, AC service techs never get laid off.
David: Oh really?
Owen: Never. So I’m like, that’s what I need to be. But it was really hard for me to get someone to teach me how to be a technician. It’s really tough to find a company who’s willing to teach a person who’s green, that will invest in you because, you know, the turnover rate is quite high. It’s difficult to find technicians. That’s one of the challenges we’re facing currently, especially after Covid…is a lack of talent. You need technicians that have experience. The landscape for HVAC has really changed and shifted in the last 5 or 10 years because the availability of technicians has become very scarce. I joke and say they’re like the Last of the Mohicans because they are so rare to find. Especially ones that really have experience.
David: What do you think the cause of that is?
Owen: I think there was a real push for everyone to go to college and I think people stopped going to trade schools. So the technicians are aging out or they start their own companies. There’s been a tremendous uptick in new HVAC companies in the Dallas Fort Worth market in the last 10 years and it’s like buying a used car. Back in the day, when your air conditioning would break down, you would just call someone up and they come and fix it, right?…no stress. Now, the AC techs want to sit you down and show you all these options that are bigger and better with high pressure sales tactics.
David: Is this a recent development?
Sabrina: It’s been happening slowly over the past 10 years. But now more than ever. HVAC companies have been getting a really bad reputation over this. But we’re trying to change that. We believe in old school, old fashion service and we’re trying to get away from that sales tactic.
Owen: This is coming mainly from the big companies. These technicians also work on commission. So they get a very small base amount for each call. Everything is based on commission.
Sabina: When we started American Heritage, we were trying to get away from the high pressure sales tactics. We are one of the few companies that actually give you a quote over the phone. So for example, when we get a call, we ask for pictures. It might be a picture of the condenser or a picture of the furnace and the model numbers. And we’ll give you a price over the phone because the last thing you want to do is to have a tech come into your house and sit you down to talk pricing.
Owen: It’s car sales tactics. They sit you down and sometimes they’re there for 3 hours like going through their pamphlet and going through a presentation.
David: Obviously the homeowner is in a very high pressure situation.
Owen: Right. They get paid to show up and they get paid 20 to 30 percent of what they sell you. You never know if they’re really telling you the truth because their livelihood depends on it. And then you’re also charged, as the homeowner, for the visit too.
David: Right
Owen: Well, there are a lot of big companies that do that but we try to stay away from that. Some companies don’t charge a service fee at all but the technician that they’re sending out is 100% commission. So there’s a lag there because they still have to pay the technician. But if the tech doesn’t close the deal then they’re still responsible for that. Some companies still do charge you a service fee for the tech to come out because gas prices have soared.
Sabrina: The truth is, a lot of customers who call are calling to get multiple bids.
David: So do you advise homeowners to try to get a quote over the phone before they can come out?
Sabina: Yes. Not very many companies do that. We’re one of the very rare companies that do.
Owen: First of all, a lot of AC companies will say, how can they give you a quote over the phone. With pictures, I can usually get a quote to you within a few hundred dollars. So it is possible. They just don’t want to do it. They want to get in your house. When they’re in a homeowner’s house, it’s all about the high pressure sales. They press you really hard.
Sabrina: It makes the customer feel really uncomfortable. But we tell the homeowner to send us your pics and we’ll give you a really close quote and then you let us know if you want to move forward. Because, now remember, prices of HVAC systems have skyrocketed. They’re up like 25% in the past two years. There’s shortages in steel, aluminum, copper – all those things that go into building an AC system.
Owen: It’s just like cars. No one thought that you’d be paying above MSRP and it’s going even higher because the government is moving towards energy efficiency. It’s this war on gas stoves, gas furnaces, appliances. You know, in the next year or two, it’s gonna go up another couple grand. It’s becoming unaffordable.
Sabrina: Homeowners are having trouble getting approved for financing because it’s so high. I mean, these systems start at $10,000, which two years ago, they usually started at $6,000.
David: Oh, wow.
Sabrina: It’s insane. A lot of people can’t afford that.
Owen: It’s called the American Innovation and Manufacturing Act and it was put into position to basically follow the mandates from California.
Sabrina: So what they’re trying to do is decrease HFC’s, the hydrofluorocarbons.
David: Okay.
Sabrina: So R22, for instance, the GWP, which is the global warming potential for R22 was like 2400.
David: What is R22 again?
Sabrina: It’s one of the refrigerants they use in the old AC systems that they phased out. And then they went to R410-A. R410-A had a zero ODP, the ozone depletion potential, but the GWP, which is the global warming potential, was up to 2,088. So it was higher than R22.
Owen: Well, as far as classification, R22 was a HCFC refrigerant which is hydrogen, chlorine, fluorine, and carbon. It had chlorine in it. So they said chlorine is really bad for the environment and the ozone layer. So they wanted to do away with it. R410-A Puron is an HFC, is hydrogen, fluorine, and carbon.
David: So it’s technically cleaner for the environment?
Owen: It’s supposed to be.
Sabrina: They thought it was.
Owen: Now there is a war on that. They told homeowners to upgrade their old systems and spend $10,000 on new systems. Guess what? Now they’re doing away with that again.
Sabrina: They are phasing that out.
Owen: They’re hurting homeowners bad.
David: Really? So what’s the new thing?
Sabrina: It’s R4454-B and it’s known as Opteon XL41.
David: So if you’re a homeowner, are they forcing you to upgrade to this?
Sabrina: Well, they just stopped producing those units that use that refrigerant.
Owen: They still have it available but because of supply and demand, they don’t make it anymore. There’s still plenty of it out there but the price is going to go up. Even R22 is still available. They just don’t make it.
David: So over time as your old system breaks down, you’re forced to use the new…?
Owen: You can still access the old refrigerant but they’re going to be paying like $200 per pound. That’s how much R20 is right now. Some companies charge as much as $400 per pound.
David: So because the new systems don’t run on the old coolant, you have to upgrade to the new systems.
Owen: You have to. And the new refrigerants, what’s scarier about them is, it’s actually flammable. They say it’s partially flammable. I don’t understand that because it’s either flammable or it isn’t to me. But that’s scary because refrigerant R22 and 410A is not flammable.
David: So this is already set in stone?
Sabrina: Oh yeah.
Owen: Oh it’s happening…absolutely happening. So we’re trying to urge homeowners it’s a good idea even though 410A is going to be more expensive. I don’t know if I feel comfortable about having refrigerant…if it leaks in your house, and it’s flammable. That can be very dangerous.
David: Right.
Owen: It sounds scary, right?
David: So what did the regulators say about the flammability?
Sabrina: Well, there’s going to be more training for the technicians. They’re sending them to classes. For instance, one of the things they said is, you have to use the new refrigerant. So when you’re installing the new systems, you have to use fans to dissipate the refrigerant so it doesn’t build up in the attic. So there’s going to be training. And it is better for the environment. The thing about the HVAC industry is that there are constant changes. And so HVAC companies have to be able to move in sync with those changes. And so, it takes training and it takes time. What we found is, you know, I have friends who say, oh you know, after Covid, do you think the prices of systems are going to decrease? And I said no. I mean, they’re increasing.
David: Right.
Sabrina: And so it’s a huge investment for a family. If you have two systems at $12,000 and then you need to replace those systems in seven years, I mean, just think about the cost that’s involved in that.
Owen: The market is really saturated. There’s so many NVAC companies and a lot of them are starting to do it on the side. So you got to be very careful. A lot of homeowners are looking for the cheapest, you know. And that’s human instinct.
David: Is that because Dallas is growing so fast.
Owen: It is and because of the opportunities compared to the rest of the States and the nation. And it’s just more busy here, you know. It gets really hot here.
Sabrina: There have been a tremendous uptick in HVAC companies. But also the population has grown so much. I mean, there was a time you’d have to wait two weeks for an HVAC company to come out when it’s 105°. That’s a long time when you have children and pets. You can’t just go to a hotel if you have pets. Like what do you do with your pets?
Owen: You can find companies now to come out but they’re like new. They do it on the side, and you got to be really careful because, like I said, the new refrigerant is flammable. And a lot of times, they’re doing it cheap. That means, they’re going to cut corners. So you got to be really careful these days.
David: Are there certain certifications you can ask for?
Sabrina: NATE certified. All of our technicians are NATE certified.
David: What does that stand for?
Owen: North American Technician of Excellence
David: Okay
Owen: It’s basically a national certification that ensures the proficiency of the technician. But it’s not required. As far as a company, they’re only required by Texas to be licensed from the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation.
David: That’s the minimum?
Owen: As a contractor.
David: Okay
Owen: You have to be licensed and have a minimal amount of insurance to be a company. But if you’re a technician, you could literally just apply to the State and apply and say you’re an HVAC or AC technician. They’ll give you a license to work in someone’s home.
David: Are there any tests for that though?
Owen: Nope. They just do a background check and if you have a clean background check, you can get the license and go into someone’s home and say you work on air conditioners.
David: Seriously?
Owen: You got to be careful. That’s why you say, are you NATE certified?
David: Can you repeat that? What certified?
Owen: NATE – North American Technician of Excellence
David: Okay
Owen: A lot of big companies are requiring their technicians to have it but we need to really push for having minimum standards because it’s getting scary out there.
David: So everyone should ask if they are NATE certified?
Owen: Absolutely. And a lot of times, they’ll say they are but you should do your homework because you can look it up online. What is it natex.org? Yeah, natex.org.
David: So you can look up the technician’s name or their license number or something?
Owen: Both. Name and license number or you can even call them and say, do you have a record? If the HVAC or AC technician says they are NATE certified, you can ask them what’s your license number?
Sabrina: And what we’re seeing a lot in the industry, as the prices of systems are increasing, people are trying to stay competitive. We see it all the time. Companies not pulling permits.
Owen: And that’s required by law.
Sabrina: Yes
Owen: You have to pull a permit and an inspection when you install an AC system.
David: Can you explain what pulling a permit means?
Owen: Well, what happens is, it’s very important to make sure the HVAC system is done safely. The keyword is safe, you know. So that’s what a pulling an inspection, a permit with the city, where we live you know…it’s required.
Sabrina: Plano, Carrolton. Frisco…they all require permitting. There are some outlier cities, like outside of Fort Worth that don’t require permits. But 95% of all cities within the DFW area require permitting.
David: Okay
Owen: You know, so what happens is, they make sure that it’s all up to this minimal standard and then after that, you pull an inspection. An inspector comes out and makes sure that all of the work is safe.
Sabrina: And the house is not leaking gas.
Owen: And you’re not going to die of carbon monoxide. And it costs money. It’s like $200 to pull a permit.
David: For the company?
Sabrina: Yes.
Owen: So these HVAC companies are trying to cut corners, like eliminating the permit inspection and not telling the homeowner or lying to them and saying it’s not required.
David: How does the homeowner know that the permit was pulled?
Sabrina: You can look it up online. You go to the city that you live in and you can pull up your address and it’ll show up if permit’s have been pulled.
David: Okay
Owen: Theoretically, the permit is supposed to be on site when they do the HVAC install.
Sabrina: They’re supposed to present that to you. A lot of AC companies are doing it digitally now. But the contractor should have it digitally, like on an iPad or something like that with them before the job starts. There is an exception like when someone is elderly or ill and you’re trying to get a system in fast.
Owen: Or if it’s like a Saturday, they can do the permit first thing Monday morning. And they understand with this Texas heat. But it’s very important to get it done.
Sabrina: Inspected. You pull the permit and then inspected. So once the permit’s pulled, the inspector will come. They’ll come and take a look. They’ll go into the attic and they’ll take a look at the condenser. They’ll look at all the components and make sure everything’s functioning and safe.
David: And the inspector is with the city?
Sabrina: Yes.
David: Okay
Owen: So that’s a separate entity because, I promise you one thing, if you’re trying to get the cheapest price, 50% of these AC companies are not pulling that permit. It costs money and if you try to force them or challenge them on it, they’ll say it’s not required. They’ll lie to you. But it’s important to do your homework and make sure it is required because if you have kids…
Sabrina: Safety and your pets, you know. Say it’s leaking carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide is denser than oxygen. So it settles to the floor and a lot of people have their carbon monoxide detectors on the ceiling but carbon monoxide is heavier than air. So it sinks. And the people who are most at risk are your children or your pets.
David: Right
Sabrina: Because they’re closest to the ground.
Owen: I used to have a client who thought she had bad luck. Her dogs kept on dying and she didn’t know why. Then the fire department realized that she had like 400 parts per million in our house. The family was getting carbon monoxide poisoning. The people were getting sick. They were getting flu like symptoms but they didn’t put two-and-two together. They thought it was just a cold.
David: So why are the carbon monoxide detectors on the ceiling?
Owen: Well, it’s a combination of carbon monoxide and smoke on fhe detectors. But hot air rises and that’s good for the smoke but not detecting. By the time they go off, you’re already dead. So it’s best to go to like a Home Depot…
Sabrina: Haha…we don’t mean to scare you.
Owen: Here’s the thing. You go to Home Depot and for $20, they have a plugin. You plug it right into a wall socket and you push a button and you test it with a battery and there you go. Within 4 feet of the ground you’ll know. It’s no big deal.
David: No one says this ever.
Sabrina: No
Owen: That’s why it’s important to pull a permit. Even the inspectors are just going to pass over it if you have a detector in the ceiling. Having your system serviced by a tech who is NATE certified is important because they should inform the homeowner the significance of carbon monoxide and if you are ever in doubt, you could even call your local fire department and they’ll actually confirm it. If you ever see the fire department do an inspection, they take a little wand to measure carbon monoxide. They wave it low to the ground to try to get the best readings. But it is very dangerous. It’s colorless, odorless and you’ll go to sleep and you never wake up. So it’s important to have detectors in the kids’ rooms and throughout the house. Have the ones that plug in.
David: So just to wrap up. The technician should be NATE certified.
Sabrina and Owen: Yes
David: They need to pull a permit before they start work on your HVAC system and then you need an inspector to come out.
Owen: To make sure the work was done.
David: And then if they don’t do this and you find out they didn’t do this, you’re more than free to cancel the contract?
Owen: No. The inspector will do something called a red tag. They’ll put a red tag and say, hey, it did not pass this permit. For example, they didn’t put in a proper carbon monoxide detector. The contractor is supposed to come back out and fix it.
Sabrina: And make sure it’s up to code.
Owen: The code inspector will then comes back out and reassess it at no additional charge and there you go, it passes.
David: So the inspector has to come to your house after the AC tech is done with their work?
Sabrina and Owen: Yes
Owen: Well actually, there’s a few cities that will do a video…
Sabrina: Yeah, they do it where you submit like18 pictures and they’ll do the inspection virtually.
Owen: I think that’s lazy on the city’s part.
David: You don’t approve of that?
Owen: I don’t approve of it because how do you know if the pictures are legitimate and real? They can be stored on your phone and you can send the same pictures over and over again to inspectors. I want someone in my home.
David: Right
Sabrina: And checking it.
Owen: Make sure it’s real.
David: I did not know any of this.
Owen: You know, if you don’t know, imagine how confused homeowners are. Now if I’m explaining this and they’ve never heard about it before, they may not believe me and they may try to second guess me.
David: Right. I can see that happening.
Owen: You know, do I need a second opinion because he’s trying to scare me and that’s not our intent. Because it’s really like the wild west out here. And just like buying a car, where they are just trying to get the sale, many HVAC companies are just trying to sell their systems or services in the cheapest way.
Sabrina: Do your research. If you do your research all of this is available online. I don’t want to scare homeowners. I want them to be educated and prepared because this is a big investment. And that’s another reason why we talk about not having high pressure sales. We want you to be comfortable with your system because nowadays it’s such a huge investment for your home. Like if you plan on staying in your home longer than 5 years, this is a big investment for families. So I want them to be educated so they can make the best decision.
Owen: Because the prices, like we said, are going up and up and up and homeowners are going to be face-to-face with a HVAC company that says, listen, I can give it you for half the price. But how are they doing that?… with no inspection, no, permits, no carbon monoxide detectors, and now you’re at risk.
David: Right
Owen: You know, get a second opinion.
Sabrina: And especially with the new mandate that’s coming out, the new systems with the new refrigerant in January of 2024. That’s when they’re using the new refrigerant. AC systems after December of 2023, they’re no longer making R410-A systems. So they’re going to the new refrigerant and that new refrigerant is partially flammable. So you have to make sure that you have a company that has technicians who have been trained and educated and NATE certified because now we’re getting to a different situation. When you install a HVAC system, don’t go with someone who doesn’t have the training or the background or the knowledge. Make sure that the AC company you choose has all of those things.
David: Is this across the country or just here in Texas?
Sabrina: It’s across the country. It’s already started in California so Texas has followed suit. It started in California and now it’s rippling across the country.
David: And there’s no guarantee they won’t pass another regulation…
Owen: It’s probably going to happen. When the governments are trying to do this war on everything, you know like, cars, furnaces…
Sabrina: I mean I agree with it to protect the environment. But we have to do it in a way that’s smart. We have to leave a better planet for our children but we need to do it in a way that, instead of just kind of guessing about what we’re doing, we have to have enough research and development so we know we’re making things right, like phasing some pieces of equipment out and putting new equipment in. But make sure that we’re not just guessing it’s better for the environment but make sure that we actually really know and that it’s better. You know, that’s fine if we have to phase out certain pieces of equipment but make sure that we know that ahead of time so we’re not hitting the consumer in the pocket.
David: Right
Owen: 50% of the reason why they are doing it is because they feel like they’ll save the homeowner energy because energy prices have been soaring.
David: Will it save on energy costs?
Owen: No it won’t. The cost of the equipment and the amount of money it’s going to cost with the inspections and everything like that, it’s not going to let the companies see a profit. It’s going to take the companies a long time but they’re already in the hole. The amount of money it cost them…and a lot of homeowners don’t have 20 grand to just drop on an air conditioning system. That’s like a car.
David: So are people financing this?
Sabrina: Yes. We offer financing. Most companies offer financing. We offer financing through Wells Fargo. There are other different finance arms out there. Green Sky is one that some of the other companies use. Everyone at this point has to offer financing.
Owen: And a lot of homeowners don’t even have the high credit amount to even get financed anymore. I mean, it used to be like $6,000 for a new AC system and that’s no big deal to get approved for six grand. I can do that. But now you’re looking at $12,000 plus. A lot of homeowners are barely getting approved.
Sabrina: Some of the big box HVAC companies are charging $19,000.
Owen: Some of them are charging $20,000 to $30,000. You wouldn’t believe it. The bigger the company, the more you’re going to be spending because you’re paying for that advertising…
Sabrina: And the overhead.
Owen: You got to be careful.
Sabrina: Like everything. Commercials Auto policies. I’m sure you’ve heard that for car insurance, the DFW Market has increased like threefold. I mean, the cost of automobile insurance has skyrocketed in the DFW Market. So with all of these costs, a company has to absorb those and they have to stay profitable. So the more overhead you have, the bigger the company, the more expensive the unit is.
David: Right
Owen: Yeah, and it’s like, if you go to a really small company, they maybe cutting corners. You go to too large of a company, you might be paying for that. So which one do you do? That’s why you got to do your research. And don’t be afraid to ask for a second opinion, maybe even a third opinion.
Sabrina: Don’t rush the decision.
Owen: Don’t rush the decision because they prey on that. You know it’s 100 degrees in Texas. And listen, I got kids. I have to get this done because it’s hot. And they’ll be like, you either sign here now or we’ll be two weeks out.
David: Because if your AC system’s not working and it’s hot, you’re suffering. You want something done.
Owen: Have your system maintenance done in the slow periods. Like in the winter or the fall.
Sabrina: Make sure you change your filters. That’s a huge thing. Make sure you consistently change your filters and maintain your system so you’re not stuck in a situation where you have to have the system changed out the next day.
David: Right
Owen: It does happen either way but you try to limit the exposure as much as possible.
David: So that’s the biggest thing to do is change the filters, right? So is there anything else?
Owen: Clean the condensers and check your drain lines. Because when you have a drain line issue, you know, when there’s water in the attic, lots of bad things can happen. You can flood your ceiling and it could really damage your house.
David: So is that something a homeowner can do or should they get some maintenance done?
Owen: Some homeowners are really handy but they should really have an AC expert come as part of the maintenance.
David: How often should you do the maintenance?
Owen: It depends uh the maintenance. You should have it done twice a year. Once in the fall to check your heater and once in the spring to check your air conditioning system.
David: Okay
Owen: In the fall, we check for carbon monoxide and all that good stuff. And in the spring, we clean your condenser coil and we check your drain lines. Sabrina: Because as systems age, the heat exchanger can crack. And when the heat exchanger cracks, then it leaks carbon monoxide. So as a system ages, you have to be very cognizant of making sure that everything’s in working condition.
Owen: Yeah and drain lines, let’s go back to that. You know older houses, I mean with newer houses, you probably don’t need to blow it out as much but with older houses, you have mold and mildew in those drain lines and it can back up the drain line. Air conditioning produces about a gallon of water an hour for every hour that it runs. It’s a lot of water that’s running in the summer. And if it’s not maintained and it backs up just a little bit, I’m telling you that drain, that secondary emergency drain pan will overflow and rust through. And before you know it, your whole ceiling comes down. A lot of homeowners believe that if it’s not broken don’t fix it. That is a terrible mindset to have. In the East coast, they have basements where you have drain systems in the basement. Where if water starts leaking, it’s no big deal. But when the HVAC system is in your attic, that’s a problem.
Sabrina: And that’s another thing too. As part of the code, if you pull a permit and you have an inspection, part of the new coding is you have to have a safety switch. But we’ve seen companies that don’t put the safety switch in.
Owen: Not all cities have them require that.
David: What’s the safety switch do again?
Owen: If the drain line ever backs up, it shuts the system off and kills power to it. A lot of thermostats will go blank and the homeowner will be like, well, my system’s not working and they’ll call us. And we’ll realize it’s just that safety switch doing its job, telling us that your drain line is backed up. Call us and we’ll take care of it from there.
David: But most places don’t have this?
Owen: What do you mean?
David: Most houses don’t have a safety switch?
Owen: The older ones didn’t have it in the past but now all new systems should have them.
David: Okay
Owen: Because it is a state code requirement now. But a lot of local municipalities don’t require it. But just because some local cities don’t have it, you should really adhere to a minimum standard for yourself as a contractor. Because based on experience, it does happen. So most reputable AC and HVAC companies do install it now.
David: Okay
Sabrina: But that’s just one of the things that needs to be checked. I mean, that’s why you have a third party come out and make sure that everything is up to code…so you won’t have those issues. But if you don’t pull a permit, there’s not a third party checking it out.
Owen: But then again, you have that city inspector. If it’s required, he’ going to come out and he’s going to see it. You know if it’s not there, then he’s going to Red Flag it.
David: Right. And that’s why if you’re just taking pictures it doesn’t show.
Owen: It could be a false picture from another job. So it’s very important to have a live guy. Take the city of Carrolton, for instance. They require only pictures and we said to them that we want a physical guy and that we just don’t send pictures. David: And Carrollton won’t send a physical inspector?
Sabrina: No. Lack of manpower.
Owen: But it costs like $200. What is it $200?
Sabrina: Well, every city has a different price. Like Allen costs $175 to pull the permit. Then McKinney charges $55.
Owen: But for these cities, what are the charges for? Are you charging money to just look at pictures and to approve it? That’s ridiculous.
David: But these are costs that these AC companies pay for, not the homeowner?
Sabrina: Yes
Owen: When a company generates their quote, you know, we always figure that into the price. But to cut corners and say, I can do it all for a couple hundred bucks cheaper…and then in their mind, they won’t even tell the homeowner about an inspection and a permit. And that’s how they’re cutting corners. They’re doing it the cheapest way possible. And that won’t pass inspection. It won’t be safe. And that may work but, a couple years down the road, bad things are going to start to happen. You don’t want to mess around. Especially with your flue pipe and your gas furnace because if it’s not installed right, carbon monoxide could leak out. Every city has to have that and the inspector will check that out.
Sabrina: And that’s another thing that the HVAC industry is looking at currently. Because there has to be new code written to address this partially flammable refrigerant because we’ve never had partially flammable refrigerant.
Owen: Like they do in like supermarkets?
Sabrina: Yeah, but for residential homes.
David: So the code hasn’t been written yet?
Sabrina: They’re updating it now because it all starts next year.
David: But those timelines don’t match when they require it?
Owen: It doesn’t match!
Sabrina: Haha
Owen: You know this whole industry is really messed up right now. They’re really changing the EPA and everybody’s really messing around with homeowners at their expense. It really wasn’t a good time for them to start messing around with this because something that’s this new, they don’t even know what kind of bad is going to happen yet. And then they’ll fix it later when people die. And that’s a bad thing to happen. They should really get rid of the kinks first.
Sabrina: They’re working on it. They’re working on the code. But that’s why we’re saying that the consumer has to be educated. Make sure you pull a permit. Make sure you have an inspector. The code will be written by the time it’s time to pull those permits. But just as a safety precaution, make sure that the company you’re working with is pulling a permit and you have an inspector out.
Owen: Ask them what’s the permit number. And even after the permit, they to have an inspection within a certain period of time. And stay on top of that right away because a lot of small companies will just try to avoid that. David: Wow, it’s a lot of burden on the homeowner.
Owen: It is.
Sabrina: It’s a big investment though. So you have to look at it that way.
Owen: If you choose the right company and educate yourself and not try to get the cheapest price, the contractor should make it nice and easy and smooth. The homeowner just lets the inspector in, he looks at the job, and that’s it. You know, they shouldn’t have to worry about this.
Sabrina: Right
Owen: You can look at their reviews. A lot of homeowners will write reviews saying, hey, the inspector came by and looked at a job and it was performed and installed well. Or you can see a review saying, hey, they still didn’t pass inspection. I’ve seen companies like that.
Sabrina: One of the aspects about our company that kind of separates us is that we always have a project manager on site overseeing the job and not just the installation crew. A project manager that is making sure the job is going correctly. And not just that, that makes sure we’ve pulled the permit, we’ve installed the job, and the inspectors come out. Now there’s another piece which a lot of companies don’t do…and that is registering the warranty. This is important because a lot of companies will leave it up to the homeowner to register the warranty. The homeowner has no idea of this. So instead of a 10 year manufacturer’s warranty, if the HVAC system is not registered, you’re only getting a 5 year manufacturer’s warranty.
Owen: It’s a big deal.
David: How do you register a warranty?
Sabrina: You have to go online. Say we install an American Standard unit, you have to go to the American standard website and look where it says warranty registration. You then put in the customers information – their name, address, phone number, the model, and the serial number of the unit. It will then allow you to print out a warranty certificate. So we do all of that for our customers and then we email the warranty certificates.
David: And if not, the customer has to do all of that?
Sabrina: Yes
Owen: Some companies might not even tell the homeowner about it. They’ll be like, oh, it’s your job. You’re supposed to do it yourself. But reputable companies do it themselves.
David: I’m…my mind’s being blown right now. I don’t know any of this.
Owen: Yeah, so it has to be done within 30 to 60 days otherwise you lose your warranty. It’s like the difference between 5 years and 10 years of warranty. And trust me, if you if don’t register the system, it will break like a day after that warranty expires. It’s like a clock going off.
Sabrina, Owen, and David: Haha
Sabrina: So that’s another thing, think about who you’re going with. Think about the permit, the inspection, and make sure that your brand new AC system, that you spend so much money on is registered and the warranty is in effect.
David: Right. So take us take is back earlier in the conversation about not being able to find qualified AC technicians. How are you guys doing that and finding them? Owen: It’s really difficult. I mean, word-of-mouth. We and all the other companies…we know each other but…
David: Are you guys taking people from each other and stuff like that?
Owen: No, we’re not trying to do that. A lot of times, the techs quit. It’s a revolving door. It really is. We don’t try to steal from each other.
Sabrina: No
Owen: You know, we do the right thing.
Sabrina: Yeah
Owen: The big companies right now, they’re in a position where they are going to the trade schools and trying to invest in training people.
Sabrina: Yeah, in new talent. But that takes a long time.
Owen: They’re not out there. They are a unicorn. They don’t exist.
Sabrina: Right. So they have to invest in new talent. But the ramp up time for that is years.
David: Right.
Sabrina: So you have to look at the longevity also of, how long is a technician going to stay with a company? So now all companies offer benefits. Back years ago, they didn’t. Everyone has health, dental, and more. Right now they’re doing sign on bonuses. A company is only as good as it employees. So turnover rate is a huge thing that every company has to look at. You want your technicians and your family to be happy. So you have to make that working environment happy and cohesive. They want to come to work and know that they’re part of the family. And that’s what I think is one of the things that really separates us. We are looking to have a family environment. We don’t want to have 200 technicians. We want to have a company that is able to maintain its employees. And so the bigger you get, the harder and more difficult it becomes. So it’s a balance. I mean, I think every entrepreneur, every HVAC company looks at that and weighs the options. We can get bigger, but where and how do we get bigger? Like, where do we get the employees. How do we keep the staff? So there’s a lot of things to consider.
Owen: And the bigger companies, because it’s so hard to find AC techs, you never know who’s coming in your house. For the majority of them, there’s a good chance that they may have less than 2 years of experience. It could be their first time on the job.
David: Oh wow.
Owen: It’s true. They could be one year or less than one year on the job, doing maintenance on your house, and now, they got this new flammable refrigerant. And they’re not sure, themselves, about what they should be doing, right? It’s really becoming scary. These systems, they’re really becoming advanced – technologically advanced. But you have these newbies, these young kids, who are having trouble working on the old basic AC systems and you’re trying to get them to work on these communicating systems. And that’s another thing, you want to be careful with the type of system you purchase because…I hear some homeowners say things like, I got something that nobody’s has, the greatest AC system. Well, good luck fixing it. Like, you know, these new electrical vehicles. God forbid those cars break, right? Are you going to find someone who knows how to fix those cars?
David: Right
Owen: It’s going to cost an arm and a leg to fix it.
David: So take us through the process of becoming an AC technician. If I’m trying to become a technician and I know nothing, what do I do? Do I go to trade school first? Like what’s the whole journey like?
Owen: You could do that. You could be like me, old school.
Sabrina: Most people go to trade schools now.
David: Okay
Owen: There are companies that will teach you. They will just spend the money to teach you because they’re so desperate. But most young kids, they go to trade schools now. But even though it’s not required, some companies require it.
David: So whether you go to trade school and you come out or you just get a job with a company, is there a certification or testing process?
Owen: Some schools do require the testing and some don’t. You got to be careful.
David: The State doesn’t require anything?
Owen: The state does not require it. Only for the contractor.
Sabrina: Which is the company owner.
Owen: The company owner.
David: Oh
Sabrina: The license holder…you have to take a test.
Owen: If you’re licensed as a company, you need to take a stringent exam to be licensed. But if you’re a technician, you just have to be registered with the state to be a technician. They do a background check to make sure you’re not like a murderer or something. They do background checks and then if you’re approved, you can work in someone’s home…and that’s it. No test. That’s it.
David: What?…
Owen: That’s why it’s important to make sure your HVAC technician is a NATE certified technician. Because it is a very stringent test. I passed on my second time but it was very tough. It’s like going to college. They have the core and then they have specialties.
David: So what’s the NATE test like or what’s the studying like?
Owen: The core is like the basics. They ask you questions about homeowners…like, confidence building questions. For example, how to act if a homeowner approaches you. It’s been a while since I took it but they ask you basically communication questions. And then, if you pass through that, there’s 100 questions after that. Then you go to the specialties.
David: Okay.
Owen: You can specialize. Let’s say there’s a heat pump or an air conditioning unit or installation. They’ll ask you about that specific trade.
David: How long is the whole test?
Owen: I believe it was 3 or 4 hours long.
David: Oh wow.
Owen: But it’s like 200 questions. The specialty questions were 200 questions.
David: How long did you have to study for this test?
Owen: It took me forever. It’s really hard. Now there are more people who are willing to train you. And you can learn how to do it. But it’s really hard to really study because it’s also very vague. They’re trying to protect the integrity of the test.
David: And is NATE just for Texas or the whole country?
Owen: That’s the whole country. So they don’t want these questions being leaked out to everybody or else it will be easy to pass. So they’re trying to protect the Integrity of the test. So they want to be careful about how you study for it.
David: Okay
Owen: It’s really crazy now.
Sabrina: And a lot of companies now are paying for the test for their technicians. They’re giving them that opportunity because that benefits the company as well. You want your technicians NATE certified.
David: How much is the test, by the way?
Owen: When I took it…well the owner paid for it. I think it’s $120 for each test. It may have gone up.
Sabrina: Each specialty has a different amount.
David: So you get certified in each specialty?
Sabrina: Yes. Like duct systems or design.
Owen: To the point where you could be a Master NATE certified tech. But really, it’s not necessary as long as you have the basic NATE. The basic one is air conditioning, installation, and service. First you got to pass the core. You got to pass the core in order to take the specialty tests.
David: Okay
Owen: If you pass the air conditioning, installation, and service test, you’re proficient in the basics. At least you can say my guy is safe.
David: And this is different than becoming certified as a contractor?
Sabrina: Yes
David: So what’s that test like?
Owen: That is very difficult. They change it constantly. And it’s the same thing as NATE. They’re trying to protect the integrity of the test. So it used to be like…what’s it called…a proficiency exam where they wanted to see…a lot of companies were having problems finding technicians who could properly look up the instructions. See, men don’t like to read instructions.
Sabrina: Haha.
Owen: So when they would try to install these AC systems, the manufacturer would have these instructions. And when there was an issue with the install, the manufacturer would say, listen, did you read the instructions? It’s supposed to be installed like this. And a lot of the technicians would never read it. So what they do is, on the test, they ask you a bunch of questions – code questions. The point is to see how quickly someone can look up the answers in a manual. It’s an open book exam. It’s five books and they want to see how quickly you can look up an answer to a question. It’s like 2 minutes per question. It’s like 200 or 150 questions and you have to look it up quickly because if you don’t, you got to move on to the next question. It’s all about that.
Sabrina: But now they changed it a little bit more to where they’re doing a little more servicing questions on the exam.
Owen: But that’s what it was when I took it. It was really tough because I was one of those guys that didn’t like to look things up.
David: Haha
Owen: But you really have to study the table of contents and be able to look things up really fast.
David: How long did you study for it?
Owen: It took me a long time. It probably took me awhile. I went to a prep class.
David: Okay
Owen: And they helped me prep for the test and taught me how to look up questions really fast. They also gave me a bunch of sample questions, which weren’t the questions on the exam. But the whole purpose was to learn how to look things up really fast.
David: Right
Owen: I failed on the first time.
Sabrina: The pass rate is like 25%.
David: Oh, wow.
Owen: It probably took me about three to four weeks before I finally passed the test.
David: How long is the test?
Owen: It was like an hour test.
David: And do you have to have a certain number of years experience before you can take the test?
Sabrina: Yes.
Owen: You have to have worked four out of the last five years…work consistently…
David: As a tech?
Sabrina: Yes.
Owen: And you have to have the contractor you work for sign off.
David: Okay. And how much is the test again?
Sabina: It’s $110 or $120
Owen: Well, you have to also buy the books.
Sabrina: The books are expensive.
Owen: You might be able to rent them.
Sabrina: Yeah, you can rent them on Amazon.
Owen: But probably about $100. Let’s say $100 bucks or $200 for the books and then it’s $20 or, what is it, $25 for the test?
Sabrina: No, it was $125 for the test. And the prices have gone up. So you just schedule it all over the DFW area.
David: So only contractors can create companies, then?
Sabrina: Yes.
Owen: Well, you’re not a contractor unless you pass that exam. And then, once you’re a contractor…
Sabrina: According to the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation, you have to have a contractor’s license number.
Owen: Legally, if you don’t have a license number, you can’t be legally a contractor. You’re not supposed to be contracting work. You can’t go to someone’s house and say, listen, I’ll charge you this amount of money for the work. It is against the law. But they do it, you know? There are AC companies without…you can tell because, on their truck, they have their license number.
David: The TLC…?
Sabrina: Yes
Owen: 2 inches. It’s 2 inches required. And if you don’t have that, you don’t know. And that’s a code question. One of the questions is, how big does the license number on your vehicle have to be? The number on your van is 2 inches. That was an easy one. There are some more stringent ones. But if you don’t see a license number on the truck. there’s a good chance that they may not be licensed. Then they can be violating the law.
David: So there are AC companies out there where it’s just a technician. He has no contractor’s license.
Owen: He’s doing it on the side and stealing work.
David: And that’s not legal?
Owen: That’s not legal. You should report them to the Texas Department of License of Regulation. They’ll send them a cease and assist letter. And at least they’ll have it documented. It’s very important you know who’s in your home.
Sabrina: I think a lot of people just think, oh well, they’re technicians. Owen: And look up that license because, a lot of times, they’ll steal it. They’ll use someone else’s license that’s not even them.
Sabrina: Because the license numbers are public information.
David: So do you have to renew this contractor’s license?
Owen: Once a year.
David: Is it another test you have to take?
Sabrina: It’s core credits. So you have to take additional credits. So I think it’s eight hours.
Owen: It’s continuing education credits. So what happens is, you just go through videos. They don’t really require testing. It’s just you go through videos. You sit there and they make you go through the video.
Sabrina: About eight hours.
Owen: Yeah.
David: And these are from the government that you have to watch?
Owen: Yup. So just once a year, you sit through those videos that are 8 hours long and they’ll renew it for a fee. But as long as it doesn’t lapse they give you a time frame. But it’s important to check this out.
David: Does the NATE certification also have a renewal process?
Sabrina: Yes.
Owen: It does, every two years. They require testing. NATE is very stringent. And it’s not 8 hours. It’s 16 to 20 hours.
David: Another test that’s 16?
Owen: It’s 16 hours of videos. But then you got to take a test and if you fail it, then you got to go back and watch the videos again.
David: Oh, wow.
Owen: That’s why it’s important. But you want this because you want the security.
Sabrina: Someone is in your home. I mean, we’ve heard horror stories. I don’t want to scare you again but things like technicians setting houses on fire.
Owen: It happens. Accidents happen. We understand it happens to the best of us. I mean, not setting houses on fire but just general things. People, humans make mistakes. If you’re an experienced tech, you limit that potential and they know what to do in in case of an emergency. That’s what NATE does. It’s part of the core. They’ll teach you how to handle certain situations like climbing up an extension ladder or having three points of contact at all times. You know, when you’re climbing up a ladder, a lot of foolish young kids don’t even do that until they fall. They go over all of that stuff.
David: I see…so take us back to how you guys decided to start your own company. What was that mindset like? How did you raise the money?
Sabrina: Well, when we decided to start the company, Owen had been working for one of the big box AC companies. And he was their number one sales tech.
David: Okay
Sabrina: And we had very little money. We had nothing.
Owen: We opened up the company with $5,000 and I would never recommend anybody to do that.
David: So no loans, nothing?
Sabrina: No. We had $5,000. Actually, I had to borrow money from my dad to buy our first set of equipment.
David: Okay
Sabrina: And we just grew from there. So it’s really, you know…
David: How did you guys grow, you think?
Owen: Well, we started off working with a warranty company.
David: Was that hard to get into with the warranty company?
Owen: No. They really look for new HVAC companies because that doesn’t cost any advertisement. They give you the lead. The homeowners who have a warranty call and ask for someone to come fix my system and you do the rest. But eventually, you want to go off on your own. That’s what we did. We didn’t want to do warranty anymore. We just did all retail, new customers.
Sabrina: Because the warranty is hard. I mean, warranty has its place, but we wanted to move away from that. We really wanted to focus on the consumer and their experience. I think every entrepreneur faces that challenge of, how do we grow? And you know, it’s one of the huge challenges. Because as you go, it’s baby steps. I have friends that say to me, oh gosh it’s Friday, yay it’s Friday! And I’m thinking, well, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are pretty much the same day for me. Because when you own your own company, there’s really no downtime.
David: Right
Owen: There’s no vacation. Your phone never shuts off. You miss the days of working for somebody else where you come can home and you shut off your phone. You don’t have to answer it.
David: So it’s literally just you two with a truck and equipment in the beginning?
Sabrina: Yeah, when we first started.
Owen: You have no idea. When the phone’s ringing you’re nervous and thinking, oh my God, is this a customer? You never know and sometimes they’re pretty irate. Dealing with homeowners can be a real challenge.
Sabrina: Well, they’re hot.
David: Right
Sabrina: You know. And you understand that, of course. That’s part of the experience. But there are also so many like blessed moments for us when, you know, we are helping someone who is in the middle of chemotherapy or they have pets and like it’s 98, 100 degrees literally inside the house.
Owen: That’s the reason why we wanted to go into business is to help people. It’s a really great sense of satisfaction.
David: What did you guys do to get those first set of customers?
Sabrina: Well, like most people, we put our profile on Porch and there’s different places like Thumbtack and other different platforms that you can use to try to increase your visibility.
Owen: Google.
Sabrina: But that’s another one of the huge issues that new companies are going to face now because the marketing landscape has completely changed. So where do you get clients? How do they find you? I mean, Google of course, but there’s other search engines. But just from a social media standpoint, it’s just done a 180 degree change. I hear the big box companies have spent millions of dollars on television commercials. They’re not as effective anymore because people are streaming.
David: Right
Sabrina: So how do you get in front of the customer? How does that customer know that you’re a trustworthy company? So it is one of the challenges that I think a lot of HVAC companies, especially if you’re newer, are facing.
David: How long did it take before you guys got comfortable with the business? Like thinking, we have enough customers, money coming in?
Sabrina: I would say like 3 to 4 years.
Owen: 3 to 4 years, yeah.
David: It took that long to grow it?
Owen: It does. It varies based on the company, on how much money you have, and how much you have coming in. You know, and then Covid came around and it really hit hard. That really did hurt this business because equipment was becoming scarce. They closed down major manufacturer plants because of Covid. They were getting Covid, so they stopped producing equipment.
Sabrina: So everything was back ordered. Coils were back ordered like months at a time. All the equipment, it was back ordered.
David: So how did you get through that?
Owen: We just barely made it.
Sabrina: It was a challenge. It was a challenge for everyone. It’s not just the HVAC industry. I think it was all Industries. I mean, look at the car industry. You know, there were no chips.
Owen: There was a time where a homeowner could offer you a million dollars for a new system and they weren’t available. Imagine that. Like literally, you know, I’m ready to buy and they’re not there.
Sabrina: We don’t have the stock. We don’t have the size.
Owen: We want to help, but it’s not there.
David: Is that getting better?
Owen: Oh it’s over. It’s over now. But it took awhile. It really hurt the industry. At that time, the prices were really skyrocketing and the really big box companies, who have like over 200 employees, they were one of the very few companies who didn’t have a problem with this because they were getting first picks. So they were charging whatever they can charge. You know, like saying, we’re going to double our price, taking advantage of the situation.
David: Where do you guys see your company now in the future? What are your plans?
Sabrina: Oh, I’m so excited. We’re doing so well. Our people are recognizing the name. The past year has seen so much growth. We’re really excited about what the future holds.
Owen: Absolutely. You know, and we’re growing really fast.
David: Well, I think this has been great. Like I’ve learned so much. You guys are awesome. Is there anything else you want to say before we wrap this up. I think you wanted to mention some of the tactics that the bigger companies might be using?
Sabrina: Yeah. Just be educated and make sure that you know things. Because it’s such a huge investment. Do your homework and make sure that they’re not price gouging you. Remember that this is an investment for you and your family. And just like anything, if it’s a huge amount of money that you’re investing, you have to be educated.
Owen: Another thing is, homeowners are obsessed with Amazon. They like see this part and think, I can get it on for 20 bucks but you’re charging me $500 for it. First of all, it’s not the same part. Secondly, Amazon doesn’t come with professional installation. And for any reason that part is defective, is Amazon going to come out and pull that part and put a new one in? They can’t. They don’t take that into account and if companies were going to charge what Amazon charges for it, there wouldn’t be an air conditioning company for you and you’d be in big trouble in the summer.
David: Right.
Owen: The amount of money it costs to own an AC company, you know, there’s a huge fee just to show up at the homeowner’s house. There’s insurance, gas and everything. It’s not cheap. I have to pay my employees just to show up. To install that part, the same part, that the homeowner is not paying. If the warranty part fails, you know I have to pay that tech again.
Sabrina: So do your homework and be educated. Know it’s an investment and try to go with the company that you know. Look at their reviews and make sure that the reviews are legitimate. That they’re real people leaving the reviews. And make sure that if something does go wrong, because things even happen with new systems, you know what to do. Oh, I just bought a new AC system and they couldn’t come out for 2 weeks. That’s probably a company you want to stay away from. Do your research. Look at the company and ask questions. I talk to customers all the time. I’m happy to discuss any type of questions. If they’re just sending a salesman to your house, that’s probably not a good option.
Owen: It is really pushy and they want to high pressure sales you. But it is true, there’s some jobs that legitimately need someone to be at the house. But a majority of them, at least 90% of them, you send me a couple pictures, I can get really close to the price. And then, if they say that sounds pretty good, then I can come out there and give you a price to an exact dollar.
David: And Sabrina, you mentioned that these large companies are buying everything up.
Sabrina: Yeah. The private equity guys are coming in and they’re buying up a lot of the smaller AC companies and even bigger ones. You would be surprised. The private equity investors realize that there’s a profit margin and so even though you think that an AC company is independent and they have an owner, they may have been the owner, the owner is now just the face of the company. There are several big ones that, you’d be surprised, are actually owned by conglomerates. And the problem with these conglomerates or the private equity people is that they’re not looking out for the consumer. They’re all about answering to their shareholders. So it’s really important to know who that company is and who actually owns it. You can do some research and you’ll be surprised that there are a lot of big companies out there that you think are independent, and they say that they’re the owners but they’re just the face and are no longer the owners. The private equity guys have come in and taken over.
Owen: They’re becoming monopolies. Not only that, there’s some major companies out there that aren’t air conditioning specialists. They’re the owners of the company but they rent out a license from an actual AC guy.
Sabrina: They don’t have the license.
Owen: There’s a major company out here that says they are an AC company, but they specialize in say electric or plumbing and air conditioning is not their primary field.
David: Are you allowed to rent out someone else’s license.
Owen: You can as long as that person is a full-time employee in the company.
Sarina: Receiving a check
Owen: And working 40 hours a week. So it’s important to know if the owner of that AC company is a specialist, an expert in air conditioning.
David: Right
Owen: You know, not an expert in electric or plumbing. Some of them do all of them.
David: Right, because you see companies that say they have all of it.
Owen: You’ll see commercials on them. But it’s really important. You got to be very careful. You never know. You would expect the owner of that company to be proficient and an expert in that field. And that makes me very nervous too because, you know, who did I hire here. You never know. Like I told you, it’s the wild west out here. Everybody wants a piece of the pie.
David: Wow. Well. I think that’s a great note to end on. Once again, this has been eye opening. Thank you guys so much.
Sabina and Owen: Absolutely. Thank you.
